Interview with Pichet Klunchun 　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　 interviewed by Naoko Kogo, translated by Yuya Tsukahara + At the starting point of the creation, what was your idea and what conditions dB suggested and your response to that? Pichet(P): Maybe we need to go from the article first, the article with 16 pages which every audience got after the performance. Actually, it is just a part of it. The whole thing is around 70 pages. But for the piece, it's too a lot. I wrote it down 4 years ago, when I worked in Germany and developed it step by step. It was very important for me to find these symbols about dance. Because when I talk about the classical dance, also in Thailand, people don't understand. But when I say, 'triangle, square...', they understand more easily. After that, I sent this paper to some publishers and university. They said, 'No. This is not an article. It's like your story.' I don't know, it's like everything in-between. I said 'OK, bye.' Around a year, I tried to send and fought. And everybody said, "No". So I stopped. That's it. After that, I tried to keep this for my dancers and for my company. And I was trying to explain with that help what they were practicing. Then, they came to understand the relation between the classical and the contemporary, the Western. Because they tried to find the connections. It's like between physics and science. Actually, dance is between physics and science. It's not pure genre, but in-between The first time when dB called me, I had no idea. 'Maybe...the name of the piece is "paper"'. Because by e-mail, they ask me for a lot of papers, 'Can you send me this paper...that paper? I need a picture of this and that... everything paper.' (laughing) And I asked for the typing to do the paper and something. That was the idea. And when I came here, the first two days were workshop/audition. And I gave the workshop based on the symbols written on this paper as I did before at the 3rd Asian Dance Conference in Tokyo where I was invited. Then I got a feeling that people got some idea. And we have two weeks. Then I thought, maybe...I start from these triangle, square and circle things, for I know a lot inside the paper I wrote before. It's better for everybody. At the same time, until the workshop/audition is finished, I became interested in 4...5 people. The one is an actress, she speaks. Another is a dancer. Exactly as dancer, I need Peter, for he has a structure. And I want him to present square. And Jong-mi is quite clear for me. She presents circle. And Michiko, I was interested in her personality, because she is nothing. And the other guy was a cooker who presents cooking. It's like a kind of comedy and good for comedy scene cut in after the drawing scene. Maybe, he could represents Thai cooking and deserts... But I thought, 'um... Maybe too much and too funny.' Then I said, 'O.K. No. Just 4 people.' + So, now we saw how you came to ideas and selected the performers to represents them. But eventually, this people originally came from different country and cultural background. Do you think it added another meaning or dimension to the piece? P: That's balance. I need balance in the performance. That's me. And on the other side, I am a teacher, I believe in a balance and put importance on it. If I should have top-top-dancers in the performance, I think, I would be very tired to fight with them. And we don't communicate or learn from each other. They just fight. I think it is good if different people work together for collaboration. In this sense, I want people from different background, different age, and different idea to sit and chat each other. + Speaking of their cultural background, it happend, Peter and Jong-mi came from different countries. It doesn't happen so often in the workshop performance here in Japan. Though it was not your first expectation, do you think this kind of internationality or cultural differences contribute to the piece? Or it doesn't matter? P: I didn't decide that. But I am firstly interested in dancers that connect with my idea, connect with the symbols and other thing. I am not thinking that is international or not international. When I yesterday wrote the program, I realized, 'Peter from here, Jong-mi from there... oh, we are coming form different places.' Then I think, It's like the symbols. These symbols are different but belong together. We are different, but we are dancer. We are human. And we have our own culture. And I talked a lot with Peter, he told me, 'triangle has another meaning in my culture'. So, the same symbol has different meanings. I found it very interesting. Then, we can go to the next step of the performance. 3 dancers from 3 countries and we use the same symbols. 'O.K. present what is the meaning in your country?' It becomes another performance. We talked about this, too. + That's interesting. Speaking of symbol, we'd like to step into the performance we saw yesterday. In the first scene, you drew the basic concepts with words and symbols on the chalkboard-walls. I thought, this might be a good introduction for the audience or a guidance describing how the audience can see the piece. And I saw lots of artists using other media, like video-projection among others for the same purpose. So, why did you use words and symbols? And why did you present them in hand-writing and not typing or so...? P: O.K. I think, first, I believe in humans working, like writing or other thing. For human, it's important if you practice. You become more and more different, if you practice and learn. This is quite important. On the other hand, if I use the material from the computer to the projector, I give the ideas in the future for the audience. But no, in this piece, I am trying to give them from the past. The typing is also very interesting, for the typing is in the past. But it's confined in short term and also not in the present. I need media suggesting much longer term. That's why I use these symbols. For example, one idea of triangle, the last one of the first drawn triangles, was "art". It represents for me a pyramid. I think the pyramids are very classical art and structure. And inside the pyramid, from the beginning, we human draw different type of symbols everywhere. And that became the language. That's why I use this idea. + Sticking in this chalkboard-introduction, I suppose you intended to break down the customs of audience's view. Or…without this, what do you think would audience receive this work with non-Thai dancers dancing Theppanom? P: For the drawing scene, I can say, I am trying to tell the audience, 'what are you expecting for?' This is not a dance at all. Pichet is the dancer. I think they are waiting for dancing. But I don't want to give that. Usually, before you see the performance, you need to know what is this. Then I say, 'please stay here and be careful of now.' Further more, I want to give them the ideas to combine the work. People are sitting and combine everything together. It has something to do with giving the idea from the past. I say masters COMBINE between life and nature that become art. Nowadays, we need to understand how they combined life and nature and create the art from that. + I see. Another interesting point for me was, that the meaning of 3 symbols you mentioned, "life, nature and art" remind me of a kind of correspondence in Western tradition. Looking at the Western academic history, the knowledge to grasp the world was split and specialized in the natural science and the human science, and furthermore in ethics/philosophy and art histories until the end of 19th century. The subjects of each branch are nature, life and art. Were you conscious of this correspondence in using this symbols? Or is it by a pure coincidence? P: No, I didn't know that. But for me, this kind of idea belongs to everywhere. It belongs to this world. I present these symbols and I ask to the people from other countries how is your idea about them. Then I was sure, these symbols are very intercultural. + They should be. And what I found more interesting is when modern dance came out exactly after this separation and specialization became problems, there was an idea that a human body or a dancer will connect these three knowledges all together within the body. And I found this connection again within the thought of Theppanom that you present yesterday. That's very exciting. P: O.K. Because this is like, I think, we are running in different way. This here is Asia. That there is Europe. In the old time Asian artists began from the temple, from the gods, and represent this. And if artists present the temple or the gods, they belong to nature and to life and exactly become to art. But in Western, artists don't belong to them. Arts have been representing maybe king or entertainment. For them, they need technique like a show. They grow up step by step to act themselves. This is my idea how art can make connection with nature and life. But now in Asia, we try to be like the western by focusing on the technique. Unfortunately, we, the Asian, don't believe in the old culture or we try to make the classical boring. They say, 'Uff... the "classical" is boring, no technique, old-fashioned...' It is like we run to the western side while the western world is running to the Asian side. That's why this piece is coming. Please try to go back to analyze your own. You have everything inside. And when the modern dance is coming, I think, they used a lot of techniques from Asia. A lot, a lot, from Japan, from Indonesia...were interested in meditation and so...This makes me laugh all the time. + I agree that the courses of Asian dance traditions have a kind of development from religion to analysis. It's running from the opposite starting point from the Western theater dance and running close to Western now, as you explained. But I guessed that currently in Thailand, the classical dance became already like public entertainment or a kind of that? Could you give us some overview about contemporary situation about Thai dance? P: No ... actually both side. One belongs to the king. And one belongs to the public. And we have different dances. The first one, we call it court-dance. This is Khon. And another one, female dance, this belongs to the royal. And another one for the people... + About public side of the classical dance; how do people approach this dance? Do they join to that or do they watch it on weekends or…? What is the social definition of this dance in Thailand? P: sigh.... Normally, the dance in public, we call folk dance. But we have so many, really many types of it and it's difficult to explain. And mainly, it's not dance. It's theater. In Thailand, we don't have pure dance. We mix dance, theater and singing together. But the original idea of movements came from the court, I can say. + O.K. your dance is based on the court dance, Khon, which, now you described, belonged to court and represented King... P: Yes, but a lo---ng time ago. + Now, you are like a renovator of classical dance and at the same time a creator of contemporary dance and now trying to access to the public with this Khon tradition from the court... Would there be any kind of difficulty to present its idea to the public of the day? P: OK. We separate. Original story represents king. Since the Rhama VII became the king, Khon has not belonged to the King, but to the government. We have changed already. From my idea, I separate between story and the movement. I use the movement and technique from Khon and then I give the idea in the present in my movement. When Khon changed, society changed to become now. We can mix. This is my idea. If we want, people can understand Khon more. Because people in Thailand they have background of all Khon movement. They know all the stories. But they lost the meaning inside the movement. Then I try to give back the meaning to the people. But in fact, this meaning is not the meaning of 200 years ago, but now. + I've got it. When I saw this work, I got the impression that you want to present this to people in Thailand, even though it's made in Japan. P: Yes. We want to bring it back, if I can. If I cannot do that with people here, I make this piece with my dancer in Thailand. + Though this piece is coming in collaboration with these dancers. But it is meaningful that you try it with other dancers, because the structure is settled and clear. And I think, this piece contains very meaningful message also for Japanese dancer and audience. Looking at the situation in Japanese stage dance, we've been accepting the Western dance history as a reference for a long time, and now, the influence become weaker and we are able to access any part of the history and make easy quotation, like in the post-modern way. And in such a situation, I think, the younger generation has lost a chance to confront with generations before. And I got the last phrase in the performance yesterday, cited from your paper, 'you should learn the history.' What do you mean there by the "history", which might come out from different background from ours. P: When we talk about the dance in Asia, we try to explain 'this is "the classical".' And when you call something as "classical", people think it old-fashioned. For me, I am not thinking about THAT "classical". Classical, modern, contemporary... with such a kind of things, you put just the names. It's like 'This is a pen. This is a cup...bra bra...' No. I'm looking for the process, how they can make this dance 200 years ago, and belong to society 200 years ago. I need everybody to go back to look at such a process. This is the idea. Don't go to "THE classical", just go on to its process. If you go to the process, there is no "past", "present", "future". The process is "now". The process is process per se. + I find it very important for those who create their own piece. To access such a process in the past and actualize it "now", O.K. Dancer can learn Theppanom. But how do you think are public be able to access that? I think anyway this piece is very good education in that sense. P: For me, even if you work a lot, and log time; one month, two months, three months in a piece, people come to see it only one hour. You need to give them some ideas or education to know this. But they don't understand exactly, 100% of your piece. They got just one, this is from Thailand, this is Theppanom, the connection of this and this... But they got something. For me it's fine. And now, in my piece, I am trying to talk about Asia and Asian dancer. They can go back to take the idea from long time ago to here. It's not running like modern, post-modern, contemporary and so on... because then, we belong to the Western. But we don't need to belong to them. We were in the process and we present, you present your work. Why I think about this, because we are different. If you belong to your work, you don't belong to fashion. Every time I go traveling, people talking 'I like you in this piece’. 'This is good', 'I don't like this... blah blah...' Different people, different ideas. If you follow those people by changing your piece all the time, you will die. You should know what you are doing, what you want to present. The fashion is just like a 'Wow!’, which appears and disappears... I don’t want to belong to that. And in Thailand, when you make a piece, you need to put exactly, 'this is a contemporary dance or a classical...' For the journalist, it is very important. They need to know to analyze it. Then I just say, 'I don't know. This is my work. I don't know what is this.' + I see. It reminds me. I have to think always why I see the dance in front of me in the way by which I see. And sometimes I realize that my gaze is under the strong influence of history that was made just 100 years ago in the small areas, even though I have been trying to relativise it. That has good side and bad side. P: O.K. + Another question is about the starting point in approaching to historical process you mentioned. Personally, I can believe in the piece if it starts from the individual body to history or the big issues. As you listened in the lecture about the Japanese Butoh founder, Tatsumi Hijikata, held by Ms. Kuniyoshi at the 3rd Asian Dance Conference, she showed that he went into his body very deeply, that's why he was able to reach to the huge cultural layer, which is regarded in general as the representation of something Japanese. P: That's it. That's the point. + I think this starting point could be now very common in the contemporary dance. But it is said that there has not been real individualism in our culture. Even after the acceptance of Western modern dance, we still have not been individual. Everybody start to learn dancing in the schools or the community and most of them stay there. But after 90s, many young dancers start to dance totally separated from such community or the belongings. And now the question; I cannot imagine that there might be a kind of individualism in your culture. Could I ask why you from classical dancer came into such an individual research and creation? Do you feel that you are individual or separated from community? P: If people could see what I am doing is individual, I could say, maybe I am different from community of “the classical”. But I belong to society. This is different. The community classical, they don't belong to the society. Yes. I want to belong to the society. Just one example, some people in the classical want to keep the art from 200 years ago, and don't want to allow any kind of change. But you know, 200 years ago, it was not performed in the theater, but it was performed in the court, in front of the king. Now you perform it in the theater, you use lighting, so many colors... It's fake now. They never know, they changed, but they changed a lot in the fact. + Thank you very much for your deep insights. I hope this fruitful project will continue and find lots of places for its performance. 　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　 (fin)